June 11, 2003
Hanson: This is Joyce Hanson for the San Bernardino Oral History Project, and this is an interview with Mr. Walter Schuiling at his home in Redlands, and today is June 11, 2003. Good afternoon Mr. Schuiling.
SCHUILING: Thank you.
Hanson: We want to start with your coming to San Bernardino. You came here in 1951?
SCHUILING: 1951. The reasons for coming?
Hanson: Yes, let's start there.
SCHUILING: Well I was finishing up grad school at University of Minnesota. I didn't have my doctorate yet, but I had passed my prelims and I was doing T.A. work and that kind of stuff. And 1951 was not a particularly good time for someone seeking a college job with a specialty in Russian History. A number of the small colleges had had it earlier, but I think probably due to people like McCarthy and a few others they had cut it out. The big universities, of course, still always had it, but the smaller colleges, the liberal arts colleges, which would have been a natural place for me to go. And I had taught previously in the public schools, in high schools in Minnesota before the war. So, we sort of decided back in St. Paul, Minnesota where we were living, that let's go where we want to live. And we knew this area and we had been out here a few summers and I'd been out here earlier than that once. And we truly picked this valley as the place we wanted to live; we really did.
Hanson: That's interesting.
SCHUILING: And so we came and we also coming out here knowing that we probably would have no problem getting a high school teaching job, just because they were back there looking for people at that particular time for the public schools. And so we came out and I had no problem getting a job teaching in San Bernardino Public Schools. I taught in a junior high one year and then went to the senior high; the only senior high was San Bernardino High. And then on the third year I went to Pacific, which was a new school. And I was there a few years and taught seniors, mostly American Problems, American Democracy something like that; I think that was the title. And then I was interested in going to Valley College to teach, and I went the usual route I guess in just having a night class first and then waiting until the proper opening came, which I got in 1964. And then I was there since except for my last few years at Crafton Hills, but my heart sort of still belonged to Valley College most of the time.
Hanson: You said you specifically picked this valley, why?
SCHUILING: Well first of all, I came from Minnesota, and that says something. Minnesota can be lovely in the summertime, but it isn't so lovely in the wintertime. And it had the sort of things that I was really interested-, first of all, I didn't want to live on the coast, and I didn't want to live in the middle of L.A. and that metropolitan area. And of course in 1951 there still was quite a gap between this area and L.A. I mean there were still grape vineyards and whatnot in-between. And so it seemed as though we would be closest to the big metropolitan area; it would be close enough to the coast to spend some time there. I loved mountains and there they are. And I liked the desert and so it seemed to really have everything. And of course the basic climate, heat didn't bother me, I wasn't worried about the heat. And so it was-, and I've never regretted it in terms of that, it's where we wanted to be.
Hanson: It's still a beautiful valley.
SCHUILING: Yes it is.
Hanson: Tell me something about San Bernardino High when you taught there. What about the students and the curriculum? And how did that change over the time that you were there?
SCHUILING: Well, of course, I was only at San Bernardino High only one year and then I was at Pacific for about ten.
Hanson: Oh, I'm sorry, okay let's talk about just the high schools in general.
SCHUILING: Well, of course, when I first went to San Bernardino it was the only high school at that time. And Pacific was being built that year, 1951, or '52-'53. And so in the fall of '53 I went to Pacific and it was, I think, an unusual school, I really do. Part of it I think was because of the principal; it was a fellow by the name of Ken Bailey, Dr. Ken Bailey was the principal. I never saw him ruling me with an iron hand, but I suppose some of the teachers he did. But I think those teachers he trusted and whatnot he sort of let them go their own way as long as they knew what they doing, and as long as he didn't hear bad things about them. But some of the best students that I've ever had were seniors at Pacific High School. I mean they were the kind that could have gone off to Stanford and Berkeley and places like that. They were good students. Of course, there were also, at that time, I hate to use this word, but it was probably in a better part of town in terms of the economic conditions and whatnot, and so the kids probably were more advantaged that came there than would have been the case in the west side or something. But I truly enjoyed those years. As a matter of fact, I had, well I shouldn't say second thoughts, I didn't hold them very long because I knew that I should be teaching in college in regards to my background. But I was enjoying it sufficiently that I didn't mind staying there at all; I was very pleased. I think the basic faculty, we got along very well. And just to show you how well we got along, incidentally, of course Pacific you may know that there was a period, of course there were other high schools built afterwards; Cajon and San Gorgonio, but for a time, because of enrollment, Pacific actually closed for a few years. Of course now it's back again, but those people that were at Pacific before its initial closing, which I'm not sure, it must have been the 1970's or something, I left in '64. But those people still keep together socially. We have a group that we call PPIPS, which stands for Pacific Pedagogues in Perpetuity, and we meet, oh I would say we probably meet five or six times a year at either the Arrowhead County Club or the Elks Club or in some home once in awhile if it's just an afternoon deal. And so we still socialize a great deal. Of course we've lost quite a few of them just by age and whatnot, but we still hang together. As a matter of fact this coming Saturday, which I won't get to, because I'm going into an L.A. play, but we're having a get-together at the Mediterranean Restaurant. It's one of their spring get-togethers. So you can see the esprit de corps of that particular group was probably much higher than would be normal maybe these days.
Hanson: You're right.
SCHUILING: Yes, I think it was much higher than it is these days. We felt very much together.
Hanson: So, you were teaching high school... I'm sorry, you were teaching History.
SCHUILING: I was teaching seniors; at Pacific I was a senior advisor.
Hanson: Okay, and you were teaching History?
SCHUILING: I had some history, but mostly it was American Problems, which meant the social sciences; the 12-year course you know in government, American Government. I think we called it American Problems or something like that.
Hanson: Yes, they don't do that anymore. Did you ever get to teach your Russian History?
SCHUILING: Yes, I taught at Valley College, I had a class once in awhile; and also when I first out here when I was still teaching at Pacific, I did have fair connection at the University of California Riverside, and so I taught a couple of classes there that dealt with-, well actually it sounds pretty awful, but it was actually Communist Theory and Practice. I taught a couple off-campus classes up in Victorville. I think I had two classes up in Victorville.
Hanson: And that wasn't a problem.
SCHUILING: And of course it also was, yes, but the main problem had passed by that time. Although, I got involved, sort of indirectly, not too deeply in democratic politics in the late '50s and early '60s. There were times when it did come up that I was supposed to be sort of Russian oriented.
Hanson: Because your degree was in Russian History.
SCHUILING: Because my degree was in Russian History, yes.
Hanson: Tell me more about that. Tell me about the politics you were involved in and how that played itself out.
SCHUILING: Well, of course I grew up in a democratic family and I grew up in the time of Franklin Roosevelt and that probably had a great deal of influence on me. But out here, in the middle '50's, the state was pretty much at that time in terms of state government and the executive and administrative branches was pretty heavily dominated by republicans at that time. But the democrats were really making a comeback and the first real big comeback came with Pat Brown when he was elected governor. But anyway, just prior to that there were a lot of organizations; a lot of local democratic organizations came into being that organized democratic clubs. And though there were several in San Bernardino County, and I helped organize one, it was a teachers democratic club and we had members from the secondary teachers and a few Valley College people in that particular club. But also then there was a California Democratic Council which was sort of outside of the formal organization of the party which would get organized and we had local conventions, county conventions, state conventions-I've gone to state conventions. And incidentally, about 60 I think we were about at our height, because at that time I remember at our state convention, I think it was in Fresno, we had all anybody who was running for governor, or president at that time, I mean John Kennedy was there patting us on the back and Chester Bowles and a number of other people were there. It was really great fun. And I got deeply involved in the Stevenson campaign in 1956. I've got a nice letter in my study, one he wrote me afterwards because I was sort of one of his hosts for an afternoon that he spent here and he spoke that night at the Perris Hill Park and the Bowl over there at Perris Hill Park. But I was with him all afternoon and evening, and then I saw him again at the Democratic Convention in Chicago in '56. So I was sort of wrapped up at that time. I was also one of the co-chairmen of the Stevenson campaign in '56 here in San Bernardino County; I was a co-chair. Judge Lawrence I think was another one. Do you know Judge Lawrence? He's retired since, but he was one. I think we had three co-chairmen. But anyway, I was identified as sort of a liberal democrat I guess, and didn't mind it at all. But I never ran for anything. Oh yes I did, I shouldn't say that. In 1960 I did run for Democratic Central Committee, and that's the sort of thing where I don't know how much you know about it, but that's the sort of thing that a number of people that are active in the party, but are practically unknown to the general public try to get the deal. And I was second on the ballot, so I came in second, and so I was one of the people who was on the Central Committee. And I'm sure that's the only reason that I was the guy that got in. But it was just the luck of the draw; I was second on the ballot. And a fellow by the name of Gordon Fields, who was a developer here, was first on the ballot and he came in first, and I came in second. And I think they elected four or something like that. So that's the way politics went.
I haven't been, although I've been interested in politics ever since, but I really haven't been active since probably the middle '60s in terms of trying to be out there using my name for something. But I shouldn't say that completely because I did get very heavily involved in a political campaign in 1976, but that was because of my wife. She died a couple years ago, in April 2001, and she was a remarkable lady. She was very involved in all kinds of things, but one of the things she got involved in was League of Women Voters, and she ended up as the State President of the League. And because of that she also ended up in the Equal Educational Opportunity Commission of the state and a number of other state appointments and whatnot. And so in 1976 we had a woman, Nancy Smith, a retiring County Supervisor, and she was retiring and she got Erna to run and it went very well through the primary, but she did lose in the general election for Supervisor for the 5th District in San Bernardino. And of course I obviously was involved in that campaign as the campaign treasurer. So that was my only other real experience I guess in elective politics. Well, is that enough politics?
Hanson: That's a good amount of politics. It's more than most people do.
SCHUILING: More than most people do, yes.
Hanson: When you had this democratic group with the teachers, what were they doing? What were they trying to do? Specifically, what did they do?
SCHUILING: I don't think they were doing much more than having regular meetings and sort of cheering each other up and hoping that maybe their individual influences outside would, I don't remember them, as a matter of fact, what did happen is that in 1958-'59, I was not here because I had a Fullbright teaching deal in Denmark. And when I came back the Teachers Democratic Club and another club had combined into the North End Democratic Club. And so from the time that left in the fall of '58 I really wasn't too active from that point on. Well I shouldn't say that because I certainly was active in '60 in the Kennedy deal. Locally I was active, but not as active as I was for Adlai Stevenson in '56.
Hanson: Tell me about your Fulbright.
SCHUILING: It was a teaching Fulbright at four seminarium in Denmark all out of Copenhagen. The seminaries there are teacher's colleges. And I was there as a Professor of American Institutions, which meant that I was there as a sort of a loose cannon who the other teachers would call upon in the classes that were in English Literature. I might come in and go through a play with them, some modern play in English. And the classes that related to geography, I had all kinds of slides and I liked geography and whatnot and I'd give them the pitch on American Geography sort of in many ways. And if I'd go into some of the classes I'd try to tell them about American Government or how things operate. I mean it was that-, and so it really meant that I probably was busy, I probably would be really in class probably no more than four or five times a week, but nevertheless it was depending on what they wanted me for. Which also gave me a lot of time to see everything in Denmark, everything in Denmark, from one end to the other. So it was a fine experience. It was, I don't remember all of the procedure. I guess I just applied for it and I had an opportunity to go to either Netherlands or to Denmark. And even though I'm of Dutch descent and my dad actually came from the Netherlands as a boy, the Danish deal appealed to me much more. I think the other would have been sort of a lower level and probably more of a routine thing. So, the other sounded much more interesting.
Hanson: Okay, tell me more about San Bernardino and how it's changed in the 50 years that you lived here.
SCHUILING: Well, I remember one of the things that I saw about San Bernardino that I regretted seeing happen, and that was instead of a real renovation of downtown, as some like Les Harris wanted to do, Sears and that outfit decided they were going to set up a completely new mall down at what is now, what do we call it? Inland Center Mall or something. And, of course, the others tried to salvage downtown and it wasn't, it really didn't work, as we know now over the long run. There were two malls just too close together, that's all it was. I mean it can support one very well, but it can't support two. And I eventually got involved, but this was much later on, I wasn't involved in any of this stuff at the time. But I was on the planning commission for several years and Chairman a little while and I was on Parks and Recreation Commission City of San Bernardino, but that all came at a later time. I think San Bernardino was, at least the downtown area, was deteriorating except for maybe governmental stuff, from the time that the Inland Center Mall was established. And that's sort of the way I feel about Redlands now when I see the efforts being made to develop the donut hole as it is. There's sort of a limit to what you can, an economic limit to development. But I didn't have anything to say about it at that time. If I'd have been on the Planning Commission at least I'd have been a negative vote, but I wasn't there. I think San Bernardino has a poorer reputation now than it had, I mean in terms of people looking at it from the outside. I've always felt good about it really, and felt, of course I guess you know if you lived in the north end of town you'd maybe feel different. And then I was also pleased; I think that Cal State has helped a lot. Incidentally, Cal State, I don't think it was much help at first. John Pfau was not the community mixer that these others are.
Hanson: Do you know anything about Pfau's vision for the University?
SCHUILING: No, well I don't know, you know you keep hearing stories about it going to be some kind of very special school here in the West that's going to be very exclusive and whatnot. But of course it's anything but that now, but this isn't the spot for it.
Hanson: Well I think that was a hard lesson for them to... it was supposed to be the Dartmouth of the Desert.
SCHUILING: Yes, the Dartmouth of the Desert. Yes I think I heard that expression.
Hanson: That was his plan. Then it wasn't working here because the student body doesn't support that.
SCHUILING: No, no, there's not that background, not that source of students.
Hanson: It's largely a working class area, blue collar.
SCHUILING: No, I think it's going great guns now.
Hanson: It is. It is now. I mean I think we've got a really great president who does a lot of community work.
SCHUILING: I knew a number of the faculty fairly well, some of the very first group that came in. Jerry Sherba and Bob Fisk and some of those. I never got to know Pfau very well. I mean we knew each other, but that's about all.
Hanson: Tell me about some of these other people that you knew.
SCHUILING: You mean at the university.
SCHUILING: Well my closest friend up there was Bob Fisk. I don't know if you ever heard of him?
SCHUILING: He was in the School of Education; basically he was in education. I mean we did a number of things; we even traveled a little bit together. His wife incidentally was in the nursing faculty at Valley College. But I got to know him through other sources. He was also, you know a liberal type, and I don't think he felt too close to Pfau. Although when he got here originally I think they knew each other well, but he retired early I think. He was not happy his last few years here, I know he was not happy. But I don't know all the details about it. I don't know all the details. But we've traveled; we went down to Costa Rica together once, we traveled throughout the southwest together. I knew Art Nelson of course, he was the first librarian. And of course as a result, he's one that originally put me on the Library Associates Committee, or Executive Committee, and I still am on it. And of course that's where I got to know Johnnie Ralph as well as I do, because she's one of my dearest, closest friends. As a matter of fact, some of my friends off campus here (we call this campus incidentally), some of our off-campus friends gave Caroline and I a reception down at the Baptist church last Sunday and Johnnie was there. And she tells me I think we're going to have a luncheon at the Arrowhead Country Club sometime in the next few weeks. I knew Bob Fisk the best, Jerry Sherba next. He was a science fellow and then he got into administration. And then he was put in charge of the Desert Study Center at Zzyzx. And as a result of his going up there, he put me on the Board of Governors of that particular group, and I served several years there. And I resigned for some reason during our conflict, but I enjoyed that very much. We'd meet a few times a year, but we'd always meet once a year up at Zzyzx up at the Desert Study Center. That was interesting spending a couple days up there. So I feel sort of an attachment to Cal State, as you can see, from friendship, the library and the Desert Study Center.
Hanson: Was there any kind of relationship between Cal State and San Bernardino Valley College that was cultivated?
SCHUILING: Not at first at all. Not at first at all. But I think, well as a matter of fact I think there's some even exchange and even part-time teaching I think at the present time. I think Steve Sandlin is up there part time, but at first there wasn't any. But again, I guess it relates to the Dartmouth of the Desert concept. Because Valley is not close to the Dartmouth of the Desert, but I enjoyed my time there.
If I were thinking of myself in the Valley here and my concern about it, really except for the educational aspects I think my primary interest has been the County Museum in which I've been involved since it began. And that's a long story, 50 years worth of story there.
Hanson: Okay, we'll get to it.
SCHUILING: We'll get to it?
Hanson: We'll get to it, I've got to flip the tape and then we'll get to it.
SCHUILING: Oh, you got to flip the tape.
Hanson: So let's stop here for a second. [End of Tape 1, side 1]
Hanson: [Tape 1, side 2] So let's talk about the County Museum.
SCHUILING: Okay. When I came here in '51, one of the first things that I did, or one of the earlier things I did that first year, was to look around for groups and whatnot that I'd be interested in. And of course I did find the San Bernardino County Historical Society, which was meeting at that time over at the Asistencia. So I would go to that; regular monthly meetings, met the people there, and of course the president at that time was Gerald Smith who was also the superintendent of the Bloomington District and when finally Bloomington was combined with Colton and he ended up as superintendent of the Colton District. But he was always interested very much in local history. But I remember, I think it was in probably about March, February or March my first year, which would have been the spring of '52, that I talked to him a little and said how about the possibility of sort of expanding a little. There were a few exhibits, a few historical exhibits at the Assistencia, but it was devoted exclusively almost to history, Indians and Pioneers sort of stuff. And you know I was turned on to this area early on. I mean in terms of its zoology, biology, botany, mountains, geology, archeology, anthropology, the whole shebang. And, of course there wasn't anything that even resembled a real museum here at that time. And so I talked to Jerry a little bit. I said what would you think about getting a bunch of just interested citizens together who represent maybe various clubs of these other interests together and see whether in combination we might be able to eventually develop a museum of some kind, a bigger museum that really is a regional museum for this area, for this kind of country. And he was very favorable toward it. And so I wrote sort of a specific letter, (I could even give you a copy of it I think because I've got copies of it,) suggesting sort of a pattern of trying to develop that organization which we would call the San Bernardino County Museum Association, with the idea of that forming eventually a museum. And we called it County even though we had no connection at that time yet officially with government. But we thought that of course the ideal situation would be to have a connection. And so that went to the Historical Society and they thought it was a good idea and so we had a few people come together and some preliminary meetings and then we finally had a meeting; I think it was in May of 1952 down at where the local YWCA is now, but at time it was the County Agricultural Building. And we did have representation then from a number of different groups, and we organized the Association at that particular time. And then we went on for about three years just sort of having meetings around just trying to give our pitch and hoping we could get other groups involved in trying to build up a little bit of membership. And the person that really was most responsible for really getting something done was Jerry Smith. I mean he had connections. He knew people, he had been here, he was a local, and I could have an idea, but he was the one that had to see that it was done, and it was. I mean he got a lot of things done. And to this day I'll give him the real credit for getting things going. And, by '57, again because of his influence in Bloomington and friends out there, we built our first museum out at Bloomington, and we did it with a couple surplus buildings that were used as classrooms. We built an area between them for sort of an auditorium and a meeting place and whatnot, and that's where we started. And we went on 'til '61 there, gradually growing, and of course it was sort of an all-purpose. We tried to get, we had some people interested in-, we got a taxidermist working with us who is still around; Gene Cardiff was his name, and he did a lot of work for us and we got some fairly good exhibits. We started having school kids come. It was all free, incidentally at this time; there was no charge for the museum. And, we had friends in government even though they weren't giving us any money yet, but early on we had two supervisors that were on our association board and obviously that was going to help. But in 1961, and we also had a friend as a CAO of the County. At that time his name was Robert Covington, and he just died within this past few months as a matter of fact. But as I say they were friends. And so finally in '61, we essentially gave the thing to the county. The county promised that they would try to support us to the degree that they could. The support they gave at first was I think two employees. I think it was a janitor and a secretary. And everything else was volunteer. But it started, and it grew, it definitely was growing and the county was shoveling a little more, but a good share of the work was done by volunteers and then by the Association Membership.
In the early '70s the Southern Pacific railroad decided that it was going to expand it's yards and we were right up next to it. And of course we made a point of the fact that you couldn't have a museum right next to railroad yards or there'd be vibrations and all this kind of stuff. And so in a sense what happened is because the supervisors of course were in control of that situation to a degree, they in a sense made the railroad buy us out. And with that money, of course then we knew we were going to look for more, we had to look for another spot for the museum. There were a number of places talked about, one of them of course being extending the area where the Assistencia and the Barton House now is, that was one, because that was already supposedly county property. The Barton House wasn't, but the Assistencia was. And then I was pushing a little bit for the land immediately to the north of what is Secombe Lake. That was owned by the county, but at that time it was just some warehouses and stuff that were there that were in bad shape and they would have been torn down. And that obviously seemed like the county seat would be a good place for the County Museum, and that probably would have gone except for the pressure then that came from Redlands. Don Wilcott, who is still around, had his plan of developing a, sort of a, I don't know what he would have called it, some kind of park; sort of related to the citrus industry, but still sort of a recreational area there. And so he gave a chunk of land to the county if it would be used as a County Museum. And the City of Redlands kicked in a chunk of money, which San Bernardino then quickly said 'we'll do the same, we're willing to do it,' but they were a little too late. And of course the fact that most of us, even though I was favoring San Bernardino originally, I certainly didn't resist it coming where it did because of the freeway access. Because the 10 had come in at that time and so it seemed such an ideal access to that spot. And so that's where it finally ended up. And so with the money that Redlands gave and with some other funds, and then with the railroad money and whatnot, we were able to build the museum as it is without going into debt anywhere, without floating bonds. We had planned for it, as a matter of fact I was on the museum commission, which is a ten member board, since after it got to the county in '57, or '61, but I resigned from the commission to join a group which was a joint Redlands County group that was supposed to oversee the construction of the museum. And there were two from Redlands, two from the County and a public member, which was me. And we were supposed to, in case there were bonds and whatnot, we were supposed to be watching things. But we really were not needed, and so as a result I eventually resigned from that and got back on the commission again, which was a little more important. But then it was built and the move was made in '74. And the Association added to that property by buying the land immediately adjacent to it between what is now the museum and what is now Edwards Mansion. And we bought that property in there to prevent any other commercial development at that time. But eventually of course we used it for the museum; first of all for storage area, and then we finally built an exhibit hall and a number of other things there. But that was Association property, not County. But we're still trying to give it to the County, but they're working on a memorandum of understanding that has been going on for at least two or three years as to what's going on there. But it's operated all, it's just one deal regardless of who owns the actual land there at the present time. But that's sort of the story of the museum.
Then in '93 we had a great financial crisis. And, as a result, at that time the County says we can't help you anymore. And then we started charging; that was the first time we started charging. And it was still county, but of course it was the County charging and that would go toward our upkeep. But what has kept the museum going during some of these years that have been somewhat lean, although this is a bad one coming up again. But up until this year the County was gradually maybe giving us a little more support. But what was really keeping us going was probably the research that was being done at the museum in terms of contracts with the federal government in the case of the Colorado River area there were some studies that were made there concerning bird migration and other stuff. A big, over a million dollar contract with MWD when they were excavating for their lake, Diamond Valley Lake, for that. And as we did a big paleontological dig and that was over a million-dollar contract we had over several years. And that is really what, it really meant that the curators and whatnot were not doing much for the museum, but they were bringing in money for the museum.
And there's still some of that going on; some of our federal contracts are still there. But our Metropolitan Water District contract has expired.
Hanson: I noticed the County Museum just got a large, a half million dollar grant from the federal government recently.
Hanson: Was that for archival work, correct?
SCHUILING: I'm not too sure. We have a friend; one of our other friends is Jerry Lewis.
Hanson: Good friend to have.
SCHUILING: And, we were trying to raise money to buy the orange grove that was right around the museum. And we raised some money, but Jerry came through with a grant that took care of a major part of it. So, when people talk about pork, I mean I understand what they mean. I don't mind just as long as it's our pork.
Hanson: Right, it's everybody else's pork you have to get rid of.
SCHUILING: Yes, that's right.
Hanson: Yes, I noticed that...
SCHUILING: But we do, we have some other grants to from the federal government. We have a grant from Irvine Foundation too, but that's basically, that's really a grant for education, of course the education department involves kids a lot, working with kids and stuff. So there's stuff like that that's been... but the, I think we've had to have, I don't remember what our cutback was this year. Over the years the County has sort of been giving us a little bit more, but then this year we actually do take a cut from what the County is giving us. But the, I don't know, I forget the percentage, but it is a cut that means we are not replacing some people. But it also means that we are not losing our main staff; our curators, our basic people here in terms of knowing what's going on.
Hanson: You mentioned children's programs. What kind of programs do you have for children?
SCHUILING: Well, you'll have to talk to Jolene I guess about that more than me, but I do know that first of all, of course, we have our basic docents that take care of the school classes that come in every day. And then they do have sort of summer camp, they have special camps on vacations and summers where they might be coming in to make some sort of special study of something. And we also have an outreach program. I know they have an outreach so we can send out even specimens and explanations and that kind of stuff to the schools and even can send out sometimes one person to go with them out to the schools. Because again, just because of finances, the bus transportation is more of a problem this coming year than it has been in the past. And so that's something that. We sort of struggle through and we hope we gradually improve as we go. But I've been very pleased with that. It's been I think my primary interest from outside of the actual raising more money and education.
Hanson: It's a beautiful place, and it has so much to offer.
SCHUILING: Yes, yes, I'm very please with it. I feel very good about it. You know there are some things you sort of think, well I mean there'd be a museum if I'd never come around and whatnot. By this time other people would have been doing something long ago. But I still feel I was in on the ground floor and I feel good. And of course another thing that happens is that all those characters that were with me at the beginning are all dead, which means I get all the credit. And I'm lapping it up.
Hanson: Well I mean you know someone had to have the idea, and you don't know if someone else would have come along, or if they would have done it in such a big way.
SCHUILING: Well they'd have done it differently. But again, as I say, when it really comes down; the fellow who got it really going was Gerald Smith. And he didn't get along always too well with the County, which meant that he really was pushed out eventually. But he was not a good County employee. I mean basically he did things his way whether the county liked it or not. But he did get things done.
And boy I'll give him the credit. We were very close the two of us. But, as I was saying, he was the one that had the contacts; he knew the people. He also, I think being a school superintendent, he got a lot of teachers working for us I'm sure just by plain pressure, but... that's one reason, he wasn't always too popular with some of those people, but he got things done. And I can sit here on the sidelines and watch other people do things.
Hanson: You can push the buttons and put it in motion and watch everybody else do all the hard work.
SCHUILING: Yes, yes, yes. Well I never had much; I don't think I ever had much influence with the people that really mattered. I'm speaking of money and so forth, and he did have some.
Hanson: That's the best way to get something done. Somebody with the ideas and someone with the contacts.
SCHUILING: Yes. But anyway, but I still feel good in a sense. When I check out in a few years there will still be some memories of me whether they want them or not.
Hanson: Well since you have a room named after you, an auditorium...
SCHUILING: Yes, yes, yes.
Hanson: You have immortality.
SCHUILING: They can change things like that, however.
Hanson: Well they can, but I would protest.
SCHUILING: Yes, they can change things like that after awhile. If I keep my son and his progeny around long enough why they probably won't dare do it. No, I'm very pleased with that.
Well as long as I'm bragging, I probably should also tell you that I've got a cave named after me. I don't know whether you know that or not.
Hanson: No, I didn't know that.
SCHUILING: You didn't know that?
Hanson: Tell me about that.
SCHUILING: Schuiling Cave, yes, yes. Well it's in the scientific literature, so I guess it's there. Well, back in the first years I was here in the 50's, early 50's, again with Jerry Smith and the Historical Society, actually it was the Archaeological Survey Association of Southern California was the group doing it. We were excavating a cave up in the Newberry Mountains, which is just east, a little ways east of Barstow. And, or sort of southeast of Barstow I guess you'd call it. But anyway the first time we were up there Jerry knew about the cave, sort of about where it was, but he wasn't too sure because the World War II intervened and he hadn't been up there since. And so we were looking for Newberry Cave. And so in order to sort of check it out, while he and I and a fellow by the name of Rittner Sales, who was a rancher in Bloomington, sort of scoured the foothills of the Newberry Mountains and started going up canyons and seeing what was there. Well, the canyon I went up, or the valley I went up or whatever we'd call it, I did find a sort of a cave going back into the mountain or the hillside that it had a fairly big opening. I mean the opening might have been, you know, maybe it's not quite as high as this door and about twice as wide as the door, sort of like that. But it went back oh, about the depth of what this kitchen would be. But it was piled almost to the top with packrat deposit and stuff. I mean it was all deposit. Well I did see in the top of the deposit sticking out were a couple deals that looked like arrow shafts or Atlatl shafts or something. But anyway when I pulled one out why it looked like it could have been used as a part of a weapon, or as a shaft for an arrow. And I didn't know anything about that. I mean you know I wasn't in a position to identify it. I didn't know anything about Southwestern Indians and whatnot. But anyway eventually I got Jerry down and showed him and of course he knew a lot more about it than I did. And he was convinced that it was that and so we started, we just sort of started tearing some of the stuff apart and along with it we found some bones. And they were all disassembled, disarticulate stuff. And so we took a few of those and the shaft and since we weren't museum yet at that time, and we didn't have anybody other than pure amateurs that were looking at stuff. So we took it in to the L.A. County Museum and Dr. Ted Downs knew the stuff, and he identified one of those bones quite quickly as a Pleistocene condor I think it was. And so we thought there might be some fairly old stuff in the cave. And so, as a result of that, the L.A. County Museum excavated that whole thing. But in their publication they had to call it something and so they called it Schuiling Cave. And there were about four or five different extinct species, but there was also a lot of other stuff, present day stuff that were also in there and bones, but all disarticulated stuff and so they wrote a paper and it was published by I guess the museum itself in one of their regular scientific publications, and then about ten years later, oh what's his name? He's down at the in the Borrego Desert now, Anza. But anyway he was a paleontologist. He went all through the bones again and he found a remnant of a human bone from the temporal area here. And that thing was dated at about 9000 years. But of course that doesn't break any records or anything so it's not that big, but.
Hanson: No, but.
SCHUILING: But anyway, and so that was published. But again, it was Schuiling Cave. So you see how much I had to do with all this. So I've been on the lucky side of a number of things.
Hanson: It's all about being in the right place at the right time.
SCHUILING: That's right. That's what it is, that's what it is, yes. So that's another deal to add to my posterity I guess. But I didn't have much to do with it. But I've enjoyed it all very much. And I guess speaking of the museum I think another thing that I enjoyed, just being on the fringes of this, since I'm not an archaeologist or whatnot. But related to the Calico Early Men's Site deal. In, I don't know, I mean sure the library has got my report on the Calico Conference, that conference that we had in 1972, no it's 1970. But the chance that I had there to sort of rub elbows you might say with some of the world's top archaeologists. Of course I got to know Dr. Leakey fairly well because he was interested in that site, and he was out here at least once, often twice a year. And so I got to know him fairly well. And I got to know Mary [Leakey], not very well, because she was only out here once and she did not like Louis being out here because he was horsing around with something that people weren't accepting too well and she was afraid it was going to take his stock down you know. And so I remember I took her up to Calico once; I drove her up and drove her back once when she was visiting. But she was really unhappy with Louis being out here. As a matter of fact I found out later that she actually tried to get the National Geographic - National Geographic was financing that for some time - and she was actually trying to get the National Geographic to not finance because she was afraid it was hurting his reputation. And of course it is a very controversial situation, it still is. And it's a situation where all we have found is what apparently looked like very primitive stone tools. I mean in flakes, and things that could be choppers and things of that type and cutters. And you can't explain how they would have been made by nature, and found in that quantity and specific location that way. European archaeologists, and I got to know a few of those because they were in that conference and they visited a number of them. And so I got to rub elbows with a lot of big shots that just, you read about in the textbooks. But almost all the Europeans would look at that stuff and say these have to be tools. I mean these are hand made. They had to be made by humans. But then they look at the context in which they were found, which is very hard to date because it's in a flow. And most American archaeologists, because they've been brought up that way say, 'well if they were found in a different context it would be alright, but as it is they are too old to be man in America.' Because we're talking, at first at that conference there were people talking who didn't know anything about it. They had only been out there one afternoon, but some of them were saying, 'well this deposits got to be at least 500,000 years old, or it's got to be 1,000,000 years old.' And of course if it's that, albeit, it couldn't be made by man. But it probably is more apt to be 20,000 or 50,000 years old, which is still considerably older than anything else. But I think that's about the limit, about the youngest that it could be would probably be maybe 25,000 years. But it's very hard to get specific dates on that kind of sedimentation that they got there in that stuff, because it's been... but anyway, that's been an exciting part also. I've just been on the fringes watching it happen and not having to do, not taking any responsibility for it, just watching it.
Hanson: Taking it all in.
SCHUILING: It's been fun taking it all in. So I've had a good life Joyce, I've had a good life. [End of Tape 2, side 2]
Hanson: This is Joyce Hanson for the San Bernardino Oral History Project's continuing interview with Mr. Walter Schuiling in his home in Redlands, June 11, 2003. Okay Walter, I want to ask you, you were in the Air Force from '42 through '46. Tell me about that.
SCHUILING: Well, I'll tell you about my whole military career.
SCHUILING: Okay. My first year of teaching I was 20 years old and teaching in high school in Northern Minnesota, teaching sciences. And my brother, who is very oriented towards the military; I mean he was, he was in the National Guard when he went to college and all that kind of stuff. He was in World War II, he ended up a Colonel, I ended up a Sergeant; see, that was the difference between the two of us. But the first year that I was teaching, I remember in the fall of that year, he came to me and said, 'Why don't you take the West Point exam?' And of course I just had a Bachelors Degree and I was 20 years old; I was still young enough to do it, and he says, 'You'll have a big advantage over all kinds of others, because most of them that are taking it are going to be high school seniors,' or something. And I had started to go with my wife at that time; we were dating and fairly seriously. And he lived about 60 miles away from where I was teaching, and the competitive exam given under the auspices of the congressman was going to be given at the post office at Bemidji, Minnesota on this particular day, and that's where my brother was teaching, my older brother. And so I said okay I'll come up and take the exam on Saturday if you come down on Friday night where we're having a Halloween carnival at the high school. You bring Erna along, who was this girl that I married eventually, and let me have the car the rest of the weekend, and he said okay.
So I went up, I took the exam and I guess just out of force of habit I obviously, I didn't try to goof it or anything, I mean I was serious about it. And I forgot about it. I guess that was in the end of October. And then at Christmas vacation I got a note or a letter or something from the Congressman saying that I had been appointed first alternate. That means I didn't have the principle appointment, but I was second in line. And there also was a second alternate, but I was first alternate. And I was to take a physical examination at Fort Snelling or something later in the spring. Well, I wasn't very enthusiastic about that because I wasn't very enthusiastic about the military. But I did take a day off from school and went down to the Twin Cities, which is where Fort Snelling was, and I was going to take the physical exam, that was what it was for. And they put me in a barracks all by myself; dark, gloomy deal, and I they fed me that evening or something, I went to mess and I went to that barracks all by myself and about 2:00 o'clock in the morning I thought. 'what in the hell am I doing here?' So I got up and went over the hill. West Point never heard from me again. I did learn later that the second alternate got there, but I probably wouldn't have passed the physical anyway, because a little later, after we once we got into the war; I mean I knew that because even though I was married, I'd been married in August, but of course Pearl Harbor came in December and so forth. So I knew that I was going to go eventually, so I did take a couple of exams, one for communications officer and one for weather officer deal. And I passed both of those exams to the extent that I was to go in to take a physical. Well, I didn't pass the physical. Every time they'd sneak up on me to take my pulse or something it would go way up. That was one of the things, so I had very, I don't know what they called it, but it was a situation-, its never really bothered me, but all I know about it is I'm not too stable in terms of the rhythm and all that kind of stuff. I don't know the details, but it's never really bothered me. But anyway, then I knew I was going to be drafted; and I was drafted. And of course I did get through that physical, because I remember the fella saying, 'hell the Army will do you good.' That's right, that's his exact words. But I did, they did give us a bunch of examinations, and as a result of those examinations they decided I was going to be in the Air Force. And so they sent me to, this all happened originally at Fort Snelling again, that same place where I'd gone over the hill.
To tell you another incident that happened that sort or tickles me, at Fort Snelling is that I remember all of us recruits, we were brand new recruits, we were sitting around and some fella comes up, "How many of you graduated the 8th grade?" and most of the hands go up. "How many of you graduated from high school?" Okay, quite a few hands go up, but not nearly as many. "How many of you have gone to college?" Okay, a few hands went up. "How many have graduated from college?" Two hands went up. "Okay, your detail is to pick up the cigarette butts."
Hanson: I'll teach you to be an elitist.
SCHUILING: I'll teach you to be an elitist. Okay, I learned that lesson quickly.
Hanson: Never admit you got up past the 8th grade.
SCHUILING: That's right. Well anyway, they sent us down to Florida where we were supposed to have basic training and they gave us some more exams down there, but when I went out for basic training, the first morning we went out we were going to have calisthenics. And, I don't know, I guess we had done a few jump ups and slapped our hands over our heads and maybe a few pushups and somebody comes out with a roll of paper in his hand and calls out about four names, and one of them is Walter Schuiling. And that's my basic training, it ends right there. Because they're sending me to a weather school at Chanute Field, Illinois. So I going to go in the weather service for the Air Force. And so I went to Chanute Field, Illinois and I took the courses they give you and then when those were over, after several few months they decided they were going to keep me as an instructor. And so I was an instructor at the Air Force Weather School in Chanute Field, Illinois for a while. Incidentally, of course I was living in the barracks and stuff with the others, I think they had made me a corporal by the time that I was teaching, so I'd really gone up in the world. But, Corporal or no Corporal, at the end of that, what would be normal school year for regular educators, Erna, my wife, came down and she got a job teaching in the Champagne schools in Illinois and I got permission to live off post as a lowly corporal. So you see, the service was pretty rough on me.
Hanson: Oh yes, you must have been a crackerjack teacher.
SCHUILING: And so we went that way for a while, while I still continued teaching. And then we had organized, part of this weather school was what we called the weather central, the station, weather station that got reports in from all over the allied world; and that included the Russian front, it included the places in China that were under our control, it included the ships that were going across the ocean and the airplanes that were flying. They'd all come in in various codes and whatnot, but it was giving weather reports. And, among other things that were done at the weather central is that we were plotting twice a day what we called the northern hemisphere map. Well, again something had just happened that I didn't volunteer for or anything, but I guess they sensed because of my love of geography and whatnot, I knew more geography than a lot of other people, and so I just became a consultant to the weather central in terms of... I got sergeant eventually.
Hanson: Boy were you lucky.
SCHUILING: I was, I mean it's just remarkable. It's just remarkable. And so that's the way-, and then near the end of the war they decided that Germany was, they thought Germany was going to be over pretty soon, but we needed more knowledge of tropical weather in the Pacific. So they decided we were setting up a tropical Air Force, I mean an Air Force Tropical Weather School in Panama. Okay, now I had to leave the States and had to leave my wife for a while. But they decided I was going to go down there as station chief on their weather central. So we went down, we took over at Howard Field Canal Zone, the Pacific side, which incidentally is the better weather side of the canal, another good fortune. The staff there actually were three separate sets of enlisted people. There were those that worked in the weather station, they were sort of the administrative staff, I mean the company sergeant and that kind of stuff and his people. And then there was a maintenance crew and airplane crew because we had two airplanes provided to us for taking weather observations across what was called the - there's an area that sort of goes across north and south America and whatnot - we call it the intertropical convergent zone. And so there were weather reports and these planes would fly through there and send back reports and they would fly. And of course, incidentally, in terms of the flying, also on weekends they might go to Guatemala or they might go to Peru, or they might go to a number of other places. I got to Nicaragua and Guatemala on weekends trips, weather trips. But anyway, eventually, and the people that were actually teaching in the school were weather officers; I mean that had experience, they were officer types. But there was all pretty much camaraderie among all of us; rank didn't mean much, and we had absolutely no responsibilities as far as Howard Field Canal Zone was concerned. I mean we didn't have to ever report for anything or had to have inspections or all that kind of stuff, we just did our job. And we turned out our first class in May of 1945. And almost immediately, within a week, Germany had surrendered. We turned out our second class the first week in August 1945. This is true; I'm not making this up.
Hanson: I know, you can't make this up.
SCHUILING: And, you know what happened?
Hanson: Yes. Six days later, boom.
SCHUILING: So, what happened is that we still couldn't stop. We had to turn out one more class before they let us go home. But we finally came home and of course the rest of the time until later in the spring, because I didn't have many service points as compared to the people who had been in combat and whatnot and been overseas. So I waited through about what amounted to two or three months of, well I spent some time out, my wife at that time was teaching out in the Sierras and I spent a month out here with her and then I spent at least two months of just time off. They just wanted to get me away until they could process, get down to me, which was sort of a lowly staff sergeant at that time.
Hanson: So this is where all our weathermen were trained after the war was over.
SCHUILING: Yes. So anyway, that's my military background.
Hanson: You do lead a charmed life Walter, you truly do.
SCHUILING: And my brother goes in as a, well he went in with the National Guard when the National Guard was militarized. But he was still an enlisted man at that time although I think he was a company clerk or something, but he came out a colonel. So there's a difference between us, but he had it easy too because he spent practically all of the war going to various schools in preparation for occupation of Japan. And where does he end up? He's in Japan about a week and they sent him to Korea.
Hanson: Oh, that hurts.
SCHUILING: That's where, but he is on the staff there of the military government in Korea. So anyway, those are the Schuiling boy's military careers.
Hanson: Well at least you came home safe.
SCHUILING: Yes that's for sure. That's for sure. And so, as a result of that, I have never joined the American Legion, I have never joined the Veterans of Foreign Wars. Even though I was overseas I have never participated in any of these veterans deals because I figure I'd really be cheating if I did that.
Hanson: But you had an important function. Maybe it wasn't with a gun, but it was important.
SCHUILING: That's right. I did have a gun a couple times. I guess it was, I think it was at Chanute that we actually had to go out to a firing range a couple of times, and I didn't like it.
Hanson: So you got in the good branch of the service then.
SCHUILING: But I got in a good branch of the service. No, it just happened that way, it had nothing to do with me in terms of just... at least as far as my controlling things. Some people are luckier than others. So I've never bragged about being a veteran, even though I spent 3-1/2 years in the service.
Hanson: That's funny.
SCHUILING: But that's my military career.
Hanson: Tell me about your Valley College career.
SCHUILING: My Valley College career?
Hanson: Other than you went in at '64.
SCHUILING: Yes, I went in full time in '64, and first I was teaching Western Civ, teaching sections of Western Civ actually. A fella by the name Dave Hill was giving the primary lectures that first semester. And I got a little weary of just teaching sections, and so I got into the political science end of it. And that's where I did most of my teaching, although I did have a Russian History class and a couple things like that just as off and on I might have that, I don't think I ever had an American History, but I did have European History I think and a Russian History a couple of times. But most of the time was spent teaching the basic course in American Government and Politics. I, again, not anything that, I think of myself as pushing, but I did go up the ladder fairly high, or fairly fast from an Assistant to an Associate to full Professor. As a matter of fact, I was made full professor when I was on sabbatical.
Hanson: Now there's the way to do it. I hope that happens to me.
SCHUILING: So I had friends in the right places at the right time, that was it. I mean there was no question about it. And also I, as other people moved around I became head of the Poly Sci Department. And then I became head of the Social Science Division, which they call Dean now, but they didn't call it Dean then, it was the Head of the whole division. And at that time at Valley what happened, when I first went in as head of that, I taught three classes and the rest was supposed to be administrative stuff. And then something happened, I don't remember the exact year that they decided that these heads of divisions, or as they're called now Deans, had to be administration. And if they're administration they have to have more administrative time than they have teaching time. And so, in the social sciences I was told that I would be teaching two classes, and of course at the same time you are also on the President's Council and the Instructional Council and that kind of stuff you know.
Hanson: Yes, I know.
SCHUILING: Which sort of bored me. And so when they said you are becoming an administrator I said, 'no thanks.' I said I will teach five classes as I have been doing, as I used to do and as I enjoy doing and I don't have to do this other stuff; and that's the way I ended up.
In my last couple of years I went over to Crafton Hills because my good buddy, whose name is Bill Moore, who had preceded me as the head of the Poli Sci Department at Valley, and when he moved up I took his place. And he eventually then went to the University of Redlands for a short time, and then he went up to Crafton Hills as the President. And he got me to come to Crafton Hills because we were buddies so to speak. That's really what it was, no question about it.
Hanson: It's called networking.
SCHUILING: Yes. But then he was there one year and then he moved on to another presidency and I was left at Crafton Hills. Well I finished up my retirement at Crafton Hills the last few years, but my heart still sort of belonged to Valley I think, even though as much as I enjoyed Crafton Hills, it was a beautiful campus and nice people, but it didn't have the camaraderie that Valley had at that particular time, so I retired. And I always feel sort of guilty about something here; I'll show you something. I'll bring it to you.
Hanson: So you were at Crafton Hills for five years.
SCHUILING: I was at Crafton Hills for five years and I retired officially at that time in 1984 and they were good to me over there and everything, I have nothing to complain about. And I was a graduation speaker and whatnot, all kinds of stuff, they were nice to me. But anyway, at the same time Valley College started having, I don't know when that first year was, having a special awards deal in the Spring for various types of faculty and whatnot. And one of the things they had was an honored retiree, see. And so even though I had graduated from, I mean had retired from Crafton Hills in 1988, look who they named their honored retiree of the year in 1998.
Hanson: For San Bernardino Valley.
SCHUILING: Yes, that's from San Bernardino Valley, which I thought was pretty interesting.
Hanson: Yes it is.
SCHUILING: I never straightened them out, but I mean they knew what they were doing I guess.
Hanson: Oh of course.
SCHUILING: But I was very pleased with that because I say my heart sort of belonged to Valley and they know it and I still...
Hanson: Well it doesn't say where you had to be retired from.
SCHUILING: That's right, it didn't say that. But I technically didn't retire from Valley College.
Hanson: That's wonderful. That's a great honor.
SCHUILING: Yes, yes, but I mean I felt very good about it of course, naturally. But anyway it's another evidence of certain things going my way.
Hanson: You're like the lucky penny Walter. I should take you home with me to be my lucky penny.
SCHUILING: No, I think things have worked out very well for me. I have no... and then in 19, when was it? Well, I've got to show you something else. I'm enjoying this.
Hanson: I'm glad, me too.
SCHUILING: On the 50th anniversary of the college, it began in '26, so in '76 I thought it was proper to write a history of the college as it was up to that time, and so this is what I wrote. And this is the first president's name was Jansen, and the president who was serving at the time was Art Jenson who is still around. And so I have this, the deal I wrote. Well anyway, when they celebrated the 75th anniversary a couple of years ago, they named 75 people as, what do they call them? Person of Distinction 75th Anniversary. So they took 75 people, but they were mostly people who had graduated from Valley College and had made a big name someplace else you know. And I think there was, I don't know if there's any other faculty. If there was, it wasn't anymore than one or two other faculty that were among that group. But anyway, probably because of maybe knowing my affection for the place, well I ended up being one of those 75. And my wife ended up being one of them also, because supposedly what they were looking for were civic things. In other words things that had been done by college, nearly every case college graduates. But there were a few exceptions, and I guess they made me one.
Hanson: Well you have done a lot.
SCHUILING: And again, as I say, I don't make light of this. I'm very proud of it, but at the same time I don't know how deserving I really was compared to a lot of other things.
Hanson: Well come on. If you weren't deserving they wouldn't have done it. I think you're very deserving.
SCHUILING: But anyway.
Hanson: A lot for this community.
SCHUILING: It's been a good time. And there I've listed all the faculty that were there up to that time. Those are probably still available at the...
Hanson: I'm sure I can find one.
SCHUILING: Well I'm sure the college, the library would have it.
Hanson: That's great. Okay.
SCHUILING: Okay, what else do you need to know about?
Hanson: We're almost to the end of the tape so is there anything else that you want to talk about that I haven't asked you about. I've asked you about everything I wanted to know.
SCHUILING: Well, I guess I would say that in spite of all the nice things that have happened to me, one of the nicest was my wife, and she was very active, and she was in many things. And I was in her shadow more than she was in mine; I mean she really was probably better known in the community... Well especially at the County and higher levels. She was more known at the County and State levels than I was. I was sort of pretty much local. I was very proud of her and what she did. I was very proud to be her husband. And maybe that's why I have an appeal for Caroline; because she's sort of a go-getter too in her own way. A different part, but we like to do a lot of things together.
Hanson: Well, you've been very active. I think you've done a lot for this community, both you and your wife. I mean you can just see from these things here, she was into everything.
SCHUILING: That looks like my print. Did I do something?
Hanson: Yes, you did that. You sent me this.
SCHUILING: Oh did I send you that?
Hanson: Yes, back in December.
SCHUILING: Oh is that right?
Hanson: Or November even, let's go way back.
SCHUILING: I was saying that looked like my printing.
Hanson: Yes it is.
Hanson: I just want to thank you for doing this for me. It's been wonderful. And I loved the tour of the museum that you gave me.
SCHUILING: Good. Yes, this looks like something I did all right.
Hanson: Thank you so much.
SCHUILING: I, it's sort of a brag sheet, but I try not to do too much of it except when... but I am pleased with what I've done and I've enjoyed it. It's been a good life.
Hanson: Right. And this is what this is all about, what people did. Now you're becoming part of history again.
SCHUILING: How about that.
Hanson: This will be archived, and people can come and read it.
SCHUILING: Good. See what a character you've got.
Hanson: You're a big character. Thanks Walter.
[End of interview]